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Bulletin Board

A meeting was held on October 18, 2000 to discuss recent concerns/problems with the Staten Island Triple Crown Series.
The following column was submitted by Andy Burek(SIAC VP).
It is broken down into the following sections:
Triple Crown Modifications Preface
Proposed Triple Crown Scoring and Rules Modifications
Triple Crown Scoring Modifications Meeting Minutes

Triple Crown Modifications Preface
by Andy Burek

Shortly after the conclusion of the 2000 Triple Crown series, I contacted Lou Bergonzi of the Staten Island Advance to voice some concerns about problems/issues encountered in this year's events and the series in general. Lou was kind enough to reply and he indicated that he would like to address the issues I discussed with him. I prepared a document (based upon input from various members in the running community) detailing problems and issues with the series. Lou and Jack Minogue coordinated the meeting with all three race directors and I contacted members of the various running clubs on Staten Island.

Attached is the document that was discussed at the meeting (held on October 18, 2000). In addition, I have included the minutes of the meeting outlining the results of the recommendations mentioned in the document.

I would like to thank all parties for their cooperation so that this meeting could take place. I feel that some positive changes have been agreed to and we look forward to implementing them.

If any changes occur after this, I'll contact Rich Re and get it posted on this website.

Proposed Triple Crown Scoring and Rules Modifications


The Triple Crown has been a tradition in the Staten Island running community for years and it is a great feature that runners look forward to every year. The running community is very grateful to the Advance and the other race directors for continuing their support of this benefit to all runners.

In general, runners are very pleased with the way the Triple Crown is administered, however, it is felt that it can be made better by making some modifications since some problems have arisen which are described below.

During the 2000 Triple Crown Road Racing series, there were problems encountered again in Team Scoring. The types of problems were as follows:

· Runners not being counted as part of a team
· The number of people that should score for a team
· Problems with declaration of team members (deadline dates)

The above problems created difficulties with both the event organizers as well as the clubs involved. One of the problems mentioned above (the number of people that should score for a team) was also a problem in 1999.

In addition to team scoring issues, other problems/issues were discussed which runners feel should be addressed. These issues are:

· Day of Race Registration and the ability to sign up for a team on race day
· Age determination for the Triple Crown Series
· Information on race entrant labels on race numbers
· Problems with the Triple Crown Combination Race Entry Form
· Who can score on what type of team

Problem/Issue Description

The following will describe the problems/issues previously mentioned.

Runners Not Being Counted As Part Of a Team

On May 27, 2000 (the day the Advance advertised as the last day to make team corrections for the Memorial Day Run) several members of SIAC were identified to the Advance that did not have SIAC as their team when they applied or were not on the team roster provided by the scorer to the Advance for SIAC at the time. Two runners in particular (Scott LaMorte and Debra Mahr) did not get counted in team scoring for SIAC for the Advance run. As a result, the SIAC Open Men's time was not correct and SIAC Open Women did not field an entire team. It was later found that SIAC had 4 women registered in the race when it was completed. If Debra were counted, SIAC would have had 5 women and might have placed 1st .

Number Of Members That Should Score For A Team

Once again (as was done in 1999), the Al Ronaldson Run was scored as 5 deep for both the Open and Masters Men while the race application specifically states 3 person teams. Although the scoring for Masters Men was unaffected by this method of scoring, the Open men's scoring was affected for a second year in a row. If the race was scored as 3 deep (as per the race application), the 2nd place team should have won and the winning men's team should have placed 2nd. However, the race was scored as 5 deep and the team that would have scored 2nd in the 3 deep category was awarded 1st place since their overall 5 men had a faster time. This occurred in 1999 as well and the same 2 teams were involved with the same results. It should also be noted that this race, prior to 1999, was always scored as 3 deep for all categories (male and female). If it was changed to make all 3 races equal, why wasn't the Open Women's category changed to 5 (it was scored as 3)? Its also interesting that for the last two years the race was scored as 5 for Open Men and only 3 trophies were given out (to coincide with the number of scoring members). It is not known why the scoring format changed to 5 deep even though the application states 3 deep. There never was a stipulation for the Triple Crown Series that all races must score 5 deep for Open Males. The number of members that constitute a team should be determined by the race organizer and stated on the application. The Ronaldson committee has not given any explanation why it was changed. In some of the correspondence on this subject (contained on Rich Re's Staten Island Runner website), a writer indicated that the Ronaldson committee changed the scoring from 3 to 5. No other club was aware of this change. The Ronaldson committee should have made an announcement either in the paper or before the race that the team scoring criteria was changed.

Problems With Declaration Of Team Members (Deadline Dates)

Several clubs had problems with the declaration of team members for the races. As previously mentioned, there were problems with the Advance Run. In addition, there were problems with the Al Ronaldson and Pepper Martin Runs. Once again, the requirement that clubs have to declare members by a certain date causes problems. If there is a field on the application or the form that states what club you run for, it should be used and the club should not have to submit a separate roster per race. In addition, if the club could not be there on the date that the race directors set up to declare teams, the team wasn't counted. Evidence of this occurred at the Pepper Martin race where both the Richmond Rockets and SIAC did not have Open Female teams even though the team was declared (per the Richmond Rockets).

Day Of Race Registration And The Ability To Sign Up For A Team On Race Day

While all 3 races permit day of race registration, the Pepper Martin application still states no race day entries. In addition, 2 of the 3 races (the Advance and Pepper Martin) do not permit runners to sign up as part of a team on race day.

Age Determination For The Triple Crown Series

This year, as in the past, the Advance announced that the age that will be used for Triple Crown Age Group scoring would be the age of the runner as of July 1. This practice can cause problems if runners change age brackets after the Ronaldson race. Runners in the age bracket that the runner is changing to would not know the runner is in their age group until after the Pepper Martin Run is completed (thus a person in the older age bracket might think that they won the Triple Crown age group only to be displaced by another runner after the Pepper Martin race).

Information On Race Entrant Labels On Race Numbers

Current information on pre entered runners should be expanded to include key information (name, age, team, sex). Team information is not displayed currently. In addition, labels for the Ronaldson race contains no information other than the number. This can cause problems if family members inadvertently swap numbers.

Problems with The Triple Crown Combination Form

Problems with the Triple Crown Combination Form have been around for years.
Some runners experienced problems in the Ronaldson Race (race personnel had no record of their entry) which was corrected for that race. However, the information was not passed to the Pepper Martin personnel and the same problem occurred when they went to pick up their number.

Who Can Score On What Type Of Team

Current practice states a master runner can be included for Open Team scoring if they declare it. But then the runner cannot be counted as a master.

Proposed Modifications

The following are proposed modifications to the problems/issues discussed previously.

Most of these proposals have been discussed with the scorer of the Triple Crown and he feels that he can accommodate the changes mentioned below (with the possible exception of Age Determination for the Triple Crown series which the Advance controls).

Runners Not Being Counted As Part Of A Team

Eliminate special deadlines for team declaration. Use the field on the application that the runner fills out as team designation. Print this information on the label for all pre entered runners. If the runner omitted the information, it should be allowed to be changed prior to the start of the race (but the runner must bring it to the attention of race personnel). The NYRRC allows this and it requested that this practice be changed to this method.

The Number Of People That Should Score For A Team

There is no hard rule that races have 5 people score for the Open division for Road Races. Traditionally, Masters scoring has always been 3 deep. Since this is a Triple Crown Series, it is requested that all 3 races follow the same format for all ages and genders. The Ronaldson committee must agree this to. If they agree, their application must be changed. If they do not want this change, then they must change the method of scoring to reflect what their application states.

Problems With Declarations Of Team Members (Deadline Dates)

Eliminate deadline dates and permit day of race team entries.

Day Of Race Registration And The Ability Of Sign Up For A Team On Race Day

Permit day of race team entries. The issue of ringers really does not exist anymore. In speaking to the scorer of the Triple Crown, he indicated that this shouldn't be a problem.

Age Determination For The Triple Crown Series

Make the runners age as of the Advance Run the age that the person will be used for calculation for age group scoring for the Triple Crown race series. This will eliminate the problem of runners changing age brackets. Of course, the runner's age on race day of each race will be used for age group awards in the individual races.

Information On Pre Race Entrant Labels On Race Numbers

Expand information on the pre entrant race label to include name, sex, age and team. By posting this information on the label, runners will be able to verify that all data is correct. If data is incorrect or missing, permit updating only before the race. It will be the responsibility of the runner to get this data corrected.

Problems With Triple Crown Combination Race Entry Form

There really isn't much to recommend other than to try to have the race personnel that initially had the problem pass on the correction to the other forthcoming race(s) in the series or have a special telephone number that the runner can call at the Advance to get this information to the next race.

Who Can Score On What Type Of Team

It is recommended that this process change to permit the scoring of the clubs first 5 individuals regardless of age (this means Masters can score as Open runners). This will permit clubs to then have their fastest runners score for their open team. In addition, the master's runner will also be counted for the master's team. This method is used by the NYRRC and the scorer for the Triple Crown indicated that this type of scoring could be accommodated.

Triple Crown Scoring Modifications Meeting Minutes

October 18, 2000

Lou Bergonzi (SI Advance)
Mike Brennan (Pepper Martin Run)
Andy Burek (SIAC)
Joseph Busso (Richmond Rockets)
Chris Fekete (Team High Rock)
Tom Gardner (Al Ronaldson Run)
Bill Magnuski (Pepper Martin Run)
Michael McVeigh (Pepper Martin Run)
Jack Minogue (SI Advance)
Bob Orazem (SIAC)
Mike Ronaldson (Al Ronaldson Run)
Steve Stafford (Richmond Rockets)

Resolved Items

Runners Not Being Counted As Part Of A Team

There will no longer be a need for special deadline dates for clubs to sign up members for teams. Day of race team entries will be permitted for 2001 and will be reviewed to see if this practice was successful. The race application will be used as the document for associating a runner with a team. It will be the runner's responsibility to write team information on the race application. If the runner omits team information on the application, it will not be changed.

The Number Of People That Should Score For A Team

It was agreed that all three races would follow the same scoring format for teams, which will be as follows:

Open Male & Female = 5 Deep
Masters Male & Female = 3 Deep

The Al Ronaldson application will be changed to reflect this change.

Deadline Dates

It was agreed that deadline dates would be eliminated. Team data on the race application form would be used.

Day Of Race Registration And The Ability Of Sign Up For A Team On Race Day

It was agreed that day of race entries for individuals would be permitted and the individual can sign up for a team on race day.

The Pepper Martin application will be changed to reflect this change.

Age Determination For The Triple Crown

The runner's age as of July 1 will still be used for the purposes of the Triple Crown scoring. Jack Minogue will follow up with Fred Torres to see if he can accommodate an additional field on the race application to carry the runner's age as of July 1st for Triple Crown scoring.

Information On Race Entrant Labels On Race Numbers

It was agreed that Fred Torres would show key information (name, age, sex and team) on the race number label for pre-entered runners. This will give the runner an opportunity to review the data that was entered. If the data is incorrect, they should bring it to the attention of the race personnel. Runners will not be permitted to add data (team info) if it was omitted on the original race application.

Problems With The Triple Crown Combination Form

It was agreed by the race directors that if a problem is detected with the Triple Crown Combination Form (runner not being registered for the Al Ronaldson Run) that race personnel will prepare a list of people with the problem and forward it to the Advance or Pepper Martin race personnel.

Who Can Score On What Type Of Team

It was agreed that the current method of who can score for what type of team would continue as is. Masters runners that want to be counted as Open runners for team scoring must indicate it on the race application.


Jack Minogue asked that Bob Orazem and Andy Burek work with him to modify the current Triple Crown Combination Form to incorporate the changes stated above. This work should begin after the Triple Crown dinner.

It was also recommended a post Triple Crown race review committee (consisting of members of the Staten Island running clubs and Race Directors) be formed that would meet yearly after the conclusion of the series to go over issues and problems.